Data-Driven Destinations: Investing in Data Capabilities
In the third and last episode of this series, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future.
In the third and last episode of this series, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future.
We're very excited to share the third episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this episode, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future with Birka Valentin and Michelle Novotny, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
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Welcome to the third episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, where today I'm joined by, of course, as usual, Birka Valentine, who has been steering and helping us get through this very challenging topic of how we explore data and sustainability towards a data-driven future when we think about sustainable tourism.
And we'll be joined by our guest, Michelle Novotny, the lead data analyst at Clever Places, who will be helping us to get some perspective when it comes to people and how we invest in the right capabilities to help us to achieve those goals.
Today we'll be asking questions such as, do we have enough people? Do we have the right skills? And do we have the right knowledge that exists both within companies and organisations, but also across the wider industry? We'll be looking at how to attract them and how to retain them over the long term. And of course, why is this important when we think not only about sustainability but about having a sustainable approach to investing in data-driven strategies? We'll be looking at whether is it feasible for every organisation across our industry to foster data right at the very heart of its operations. There are many challenges that come up when we discuss this. So without hesitation, let's jump into that conversation.
So welcome back everybody. It's great to be here with episode 3 where we are focusing on how to invest in capability around data. Now, I'm very pleased to be joined once again by Birka Valentin. Great to see you again.
Hi, Nick, good to be here.
And today, tell us a little bit about today's guest because as I have mentioned in the previous episodes, we've been working together to see who can help frame the topics that we have been tackling in this series. So we're here with Michelle Novotny. I'm really pleased to have you here.
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Before we head over and hear a little bit more about yourself, maybe I'll invite Birka just to tell us a little bit about why you think Michelle is a really interesting match for this topic.
Yeah, yeah. The answer is quite simple, Nick. I think when we look around the tourism sector right now and who's doing work at the destination level as well, in terms of data, there are obviously many, many people involved nowadays, but there are probably more men than women.
Michelle will introduce herself, obviously, with more detail, with the company Clever, a female-led enterprise, focusing on data, and I thought that would be a really good contribution to the topic and a nice kickoff as well in talking about human resources and the skills needed. So that obviously put us the expertise and that she is a female, I thought was a good, good start for this one.
Well, Michelle, you certainly seem like a very, very driven female leader. So tell us a little bit about your background. Let's help everybody get to know who you are and what brought you to today's podcast.
For sure. Thank you so much for having me on today. I'm a recent graduate from the Master of Science and Management program at Toronto Metropolitan University. So I have a background in research in data analytics, specifically within the hospitality and tourism industry. I've worked as a research assistant since 2019, and I've recently come on as the data analyst at Clever Places. So we're a startup company focused on data insights for DMOs, basically, we try to aggregate and integrate all of their tourism insights and data into our easy-to-use dashboard tool.
That's great. Well, it certainly sounds like you've got things off to a very, very strong start. So let's first of all talk about capability, because I think this is definitely the topic that we want to get underneath the skin of today. And maybe just before we jump into some of the different angles we need to explore here for you, why is it so important that DMOs are becoming more and more data-driven? Why is this something that they need to absolutely prioritise in their work?
Yeah, I think it's really important for me, it comes down to sort of three Rs, which are responsibility, reliability and relevance. Like in terms of responsibilities, the tourism industry is one of the largest economic sectors worldwide. So we have an enormous impact, both positive and negative on the environment or communities in the economy. So we owe a responsibility to monitor that impact and have an influence there. And data-driven decision-making gives us the tools to do that.
I think it also comes down to reliability. So with information communication technologies and big data, we're able to make smarter and faster decisions so we don't have to rely on just past experience and intuition. And then finally, relevance. So DMOs have often been criticised for their inability to adapt to technological and societal trends. So this offers an opportunity for them to continue to remain relevant in this dynamically evolving tourism landscape.
Yeah, and that's the challenge, right? How do you actually remain relevant through the evolution of how you approach this, how you incorporate it, and how you develop the right people and the talent and the understanding in order to be able to actually achieve that opportunity? Before we kind of jump into that, Birka what's your experience been with this? I know you've worked very comprehensively within destinations and also between destinations, so you must have surely seen a really interesting set of differences when it comes to the role that people play in this process.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we're really looking at the foundation of it all right? And all of the projects that we see in destinations on the data side, but all the others, obviously there are many, many success factors for those kinds of projects, but I do think the common element and all of them are always the people and that it succeeds and falls with whoever is behind that.
So in terms of the data-driven aspect, when we talk about strengthening data capacities within destinations, there is a very noticeable difference if you see in destinations. If there is some staff that knows a little bit more about that topic, then there's always the more the traditional capacity of analysing kind of the traditional information, statistics, for example, that usually you can find.
Um, but going beyond that in different destinations than you do see, start to see the differences of who's been able to go deeper into certain insights have a broader insight and more different data sources, right? And going into what Michelle was mentioning, the big data sources, for example, and that is also, I wouldn't even say it depends much on the country, or on the Destination, maybe there's sometimes a bit of a cultural part in that one as well, but it's more, I think of a development aspect of the DMOs as well. And what kind of development stage are they in, how important is this data for them, and what's the commitment to lead with more evidence and tangible insights?
We actually touched on this a little bit in the last episode where we spoke especially about the need to commit to the long term. And that was something that we kind of picked up on as not only a question of investing in projects, resources, and plans that can take us really far into the future because data is something we need to build and build and build upon.
But I think we also mentioned a little bit the people aspect of that as well, and looking at how to build and invest in the right people that can take things all the way through to their full potential. So Michelle, turning to you, tell me a little bit about why you see people as being key to this important kind of goal of transforming how we work as destinations and putting data as the driving force towards destination transformation.
Yeah, I think people played such a fundamental role in this change at all different levels. I mean, we need the people that are building smart tourism infrastructures or researchers or data scientists and analysts. There are those stakeholders that are interacting with this infrastructure, like our tourists and residents and our businesses, and then there are those who are going to leverage this infrastructure to actually make the decision. So at all different levels, it's people and it's having those skills and even just the ability to communicate these insights that we're getting.
So you're kind of referring here, to one key set of skills, which I think maybe also quickly is the assumption that a lot of people would have. When you talk about data and you talk about skills, you immediately kind of connect it with okay, data scientists, people who are very analytical and able to work with the data sets that are the kind of the baseline of what we're doing. But you're also talking about a kind of leadership level as well there then. So the capability of right up to directors, vice president, CEOs, also being comfortable to really talk and work with data.
I think Nick, the topic about the profiles is really important, because one of the things we still haven't really gotten around to yet that we talk about data-driven destinations and maybe with one or two people that that would be enough, right? But if we are really talking about a whole transformation of an entire system, and obviously in that, you need at least a basic understanding of that kind of insights and how this is being generated. And obviously, then you need the specialist, right?
At the technical level who are able to do all the different processes of data, which are also not just looking or getting data, but then the whole cleaning part, the analytical part, and then turning these insights that we are finding into stories that are understandable for the non-data people from inside and outside their organisations, and being able to actually tell that story, including correlating different insights here, right? But that requires not only data and knowledge but also then tourism knowledge, right? And that's another then step towards where we need to go.
Yeah. So we kind of often focus on these one or two individuals, but I guess if we look at the need, it's really, are we talking about trying to upgrade almost the skills of an entire organisation, so everybody who has to work on everything related to the DMOs direction to be, have a kind of level of fluency when it comes to data?
I think there's a need to be individuals within the DMO that have the capacity to analyse the data, but also communicate it within the context of the tourism industry. And I think everyone needs to be able to understand it at some level, but there do need to be those specific individuals that have that background in data science and analytics.
Now, Birka, you spoke about storytelling data, which I think it's something that's quite nice to connect with because it is that human aspect of being able to take something that's blunt, you know, a set of numbers and somehow kind of tell the human part that sits behind that. What does that tell us? How does that impact someone's life? How does that impact the experience? And I guess that's quite a rare skill, right? What are we actually looking for in order to find people who can be almost sort of translators between data and between interpretation and understanding there?
Yeah. It's definitely a multidisciplinary profile, right? We're talking about someone who doesn't need to have specific in-depth knowledge, a data analyst that goes into all the different details or someone who then builds the different graphics or maps whatsoever. But someone who needs to understand how those things function. Especially, one of the really important things I think that really helps to tell stories is the geographical aspect, right? And then we're talking about someone as well that needs to understand maps and geographic information and putting that into a kind of a location context. That itself is a huge challenge sometimes. It's a bit of a multidisciplinary person. I think that requires a bit of everything, but not in depth.
And Michelle, you've gone from being a fairly recent graduate to having a key role as a data analyst at Clever Places, which is a great accomplishment. So early on in your career, so perhaps this gives you a different perspective as well. How do you see the development process and the opportunities that are available? As someone who graduated, what was your experience like when we talk about data?
You know, from my perspective, we're talking about something that everybody had to get on board with, teach themselves, learn themselves, and really pursue a genuine sense of curiosity if that isn't their core background. But today, bringing the right talent into the industry doesn't require data scientists as such, but it requires, as Birka was talking about this kind of multi multi-disciplined skillset. What's your experience been, you know, going through the further education process and then into graduate positions and then up through the ladder, what's been great and also what's been missing?
Yeah, exactly. I think you mentioned it perfectly that it's difficult to find people that have that background in both analytics and understanding the data process, but that also have that knowledge of the tourism industry. Because it is quite complex and it's a large industry with a lot of different players. So to be just someone with a background in just data science isn't really enough to come into tourism and really communicate it and tell the story. But then also, are we having enough education at the level of our colleges and universities in these tourism programs, giving graduates enough, background in data science so they can then go into the industry and apply it?
I'd say I was very lucky with my program at the Ted Rogers School of Hospitality and Tourism Management to have courses that were in information technology management and they built the foundation of those skills. I was really able to build on them in my master's program where I took a lot of statistics courses that really helped build on that. But, you know, it's also been along the way a lot of just self-taught and learning and mentorships as well within the industry and watching tutorials and videos and learning yourself and reading books. So it's gotta be a passion as well. You gotta have a passion for both the data and the industry.
That's a very interesting perspective. I think it's one that's quite different from maybe how education and tourism looked, say 15 years ago or even a little bit longer. And there does seem to be a significant increase in the integration of analytical aspects into tourism programs. And this seems to be that it can only really be a good thing for what our industry needs right now, which is perhaps more the comfort and confidence to then take that learning and that level of understanding wherever the intrigue and curiosity kind of brings you.
It's also really nice to hear about that kind of self-learning pursuit that then you can kind of take forward based on a genuine passion and interest. Do you think we have the right environment in the industry to kind of embrace that kind of excitement, that curiosity, and see people develop and be able to contribute these skills in this interest further?
I definitely think we have the right passion and drive to do so. I think really the limitation comes down to resources and if DMOs have the capacity to put money into the training and development and the hiring of these individuals that share those passions because I really think their responsibilities have expanded so much over the years, but it doesn't seem like their teams and budgets have necessarily expanded to represent those growing responsibilities. So it really comes down to those limitations. But I've seen that a lot of DMOs want to.
Yeah, there certainly seems to be a lot of determination and commitment, but how that translates maybe looks a little bit different. What's your experience of that being Birka?
I agree with Michelle. You see luckily more and more of those elements are being put into the curriculum, right? You see more and you see passionate people around this. And the good thing about this is that there is a lot of self-learning, through, you know, all the digitalised courses nowadays. So you don't always just depend on the traditional kind of educational system. Plus it's a very kind of dynamic environment that changes so quickly that is really not something you learn and then you are done with it. It's a continuous kind of education of yourself, and to keep that, obviously, we need the environments within the DMO as well to help us have the time to do that as well, right?
That's many times also get lost in so many daily activities and responsibilities that I've seen one of the challenges and destinations that's just to give that time also to employees and enable them to learn. But then there's also a really big question about how much of the knowledge we want to internalise in our DMOs and how much can we share with other organisations. How much can we rely on maybe freelancers and how much can we rely on organisations, such as the one from Michelle? It's an internal decision-making process that everyone needs to make to see what we need. What kind of questions do we want to answer, as we talked about last time and how much of that do we want to build internally? And that's a strategic decision in the end.
Yeah, I think that's actually a really great point. I mean, we see that one of the biggest issues, and not only in terms of data and development, but really across the board, and it also includes brand and marketing work, is that destinations have a tendency to outsource huge responsibilities to agencies, that they maybe work with for one to two years. And then that changes and changes and changes. And sometimes that can give them really quick wins, really fast results, something very tangible, very presentable. But there often is this lack of continuity and this lack of ownership of the knowledge of the ideas of the creativity that goes into that. And we see that those that do really well kind of break that model. They actually internalise that and they make a lot of success alongside a lot of failure in the process, I guess.
What do you think is the biggest barrier or challenge to trying to switch the mindsets to outsourcing these big ideas or big projects to actually seems like almost remodelling operations where everybody is committed to the joint kind of development process? Whether or not they necessarily know or have the answers to get there.
At Clever Places, we're trying to make it more of a partnership with our DMOs rather than them just simply outsourcing it to us. It's important to share in that ownership and responsibility what the ultimate goal is of this. So we're not just trying to be third-party data analysts for them. We're really trying to be involved in the sourcing of data, trying to find data sources that we can collect that they can't, and ones that they can collect that we can't.
And analysing that together to try to find what the key performance indicators you really need to measure and what's the best way that we can analyse it, and visualise it for you so that you can really mobilise it and make the best decisions. You can't just outsource that and not have any part of it and then just look at the dashboard or the output or report that you get. You really need to be involved in the entire process.
That's a great way of looking at where maybe that sweet spot between working with a partner, and doing everything in-house yourself is because as we spoke about at the beginning, there are maybe broad data skills which need almost a complete upgrading of everybody's knowledge and understanding. Perhaps there are even specialist areas where those technical skills and knowledge are really required because it's something that concerns the DMO continuously throughout its evolution. But at the same time, there are many areas which are somewhere between the two. And it seems like this partnership working approach with contracted partners could present really interesting opportunities to have a sort of hybrid approach.
Do you see that as something, or have you experienced that as something that can work on a long-term basis it seems for that to be viable, it needs to be both, affordable long-term and on the other hand, integrated in such a way that it's a trusted partnership for as long as it remains trusted?
Yeah, definitely. I think it can be more of a long-term approach because really in the end it does seem to be more affordable for those that don't have the capacity, especially smaller DMOs to hire a full data analyst and scientists team on board, they can hire externally. And really it's just the initial startup costs to build these tools. And a lot of it becomes sort of maintenance over time, and just continue working on finding the right sources, but it becomes more of a maintenance than it really does in a high ongoing cost. Just the partnership as, as it was mentioned sort of a long-term basis, I think works because you really are involved in taking ownership over the outcomes and the values and the views that the DMO wants as well.
Now that's quite interesting because Michelle's kind of framed it as something that can work, but it requires that investment still of attitudes of mindset of time. I think maybe also a level of knowledge and understanding from the outset of what you're getting into there is that initial cost. So this must be sometimes challenging for destinations to either understand that if you invest at the beginning, it's something you want to be committed to in the long run, but also to understand why perhaps it's a bigger front end cost, and it takes more resources to get something in place rather than something you just kind of outsource a quick analysis and you're kind of done with it. Do you find that, if we talk about developing capabilities around data and seeing more confident workforces within DMOs, do you find that from your experience there are some kind of initial roadblocks or hurdles to overcome to even get to that point?
We are in general a bit in a dilemma, living in a world where we need to deliver quick results. Where we are people are more and more used stakeholders are more and more used to get answers quickly. Building something up from scratch, taking time and having an initial investment, in the beginning, is something we very rarely see, especially in destinations, understandably for many reasons, because you are working in a framework of many times political. And if those are changing on a regular basis, then obviously there is this repetitive work needed of explaining, convincing, educating and finding the supporters that you need for those types of projects.
So that itself is a big roadblock. Then the fine balance to decide how much you want to have internally and externally, and if you want to have it more internally or with a great partnership in the long term on the side - how do you then attract the people in a sector where we usually don't pay very well at the technical level compared to other industries right now who are needing that kind of profile data profiles. So there's lots of movement going on right now in that world. So just being able to attract and retain that talent is a big challenge in itself as well.
Now you're both two very successful women who are really making an impact and carving out your own niche space and reputations. So I have huge respect for both of you, but help us understand a little bit about this gender balance, the question looks like if we think about both tourism as an industry, but also then if we nuance down to data, as a kind of technology related industry. What's your personal experience been, and I guess what would your observation be today where there's still a need for change? And sorry, this is quite a few questions in one, but how might we actively work to address that as well?
I've been very fortunate to be mentored by and work alongside some remarkable women within the field of tourism and even in data as well. I think it's really important that we continue to collaborate rather than compete just in general within the industry, by sharing knowledge, experience skills and opportunities with each other.
I think it also starts in our schools. So encouraging girls to join data and tech-related electives and extracurriculars in our high schools and elementary schools and to take university and college programs that are within the hospitality and those courses that are within information technology. And just the way we talk about it in general, because these tech jobs and data-related jobs do tend to be a bit more male-dominated, just changing the way that we speak about it in the language to be a bit more gender neutral.
I can only support what Michelle was just saying. I think, besides the gender balance in itself, I guess to this whole data world was a little bit different than Michelle's, for example, because I came in there later, right? I specialised first in destination management and in sustainability. And then as time was moving on, because that was already 10 years ago and there was the topic of big data wasn't really a part that we talked about much. It was more statistics and traditional insights.
But as time was going on and we had more and more data sources, being able to have, it doesn't matter if you are a female or male, but having the environment where you, when you have that curiosity and you see that this is something you are interested in and that would make sense for you have the ability to add that to your current skillset, which I think is fundamental and where we are, where we are heading because we won't have enough people just coming out of universities and having those skillsets, right?
It's a lot about transferring and having people move from one area to the other and just adding to it. So that itself, I think there are by now many great also programs that focus, especially on women. But I find it almost an issue of, especially in the future being able to transfer and use skills that have been there before and adapt them to what we need.
So two really slightly different perspectives there. And Michelle, from your perspective, I think you really talk about the attractiveness of the sector as a kind of career path. So really pursuing data and being encouraged and seeing the appeal of it, that this is actually a really interesting career path to go down and I guess Birka talking a bit differently there. It's really interesting to see that perspective about evolving skills and taking sometimes really valuable experience and knowledge and quite intricate understanding and then being able to almost kind of augment that by continuing to grow and continuing to learn.
So yeah, these are two really interesting perspectives. Well, if we maybe take as kind of one wrap-up point here, what I would love to get your candid opinion on is thinking about DMO, because we do a lot of work with destinations.
We talk a lot about the work that they're doing. And in fact, today we've been talking about how destinations can invest in the right capabilities, whether they're insourced or outsourced. And what I would love to know from each of you is if destinations can take one bold action to radically change how they approach development and developing people, what action would they take?
And Michelle, I'm gonna throw maybe a curve ball to you to just ask also an additional question. At the moment, you're working in a specialised company that's giving you the opportunity to perhaps play and really develop in an area that you love. What is missing in a DMO that perhaps doesn't quite make that such a playground that could be that it seems like you really enjoy the space you're in right now, and how can a DMO make that environment competitive? So who wants to go first on that? It's a big question, so you might need a second to think about it.
I'll try to go first. I'm a bit biased because I'm coming from the perspective of that external data insights company. So I think one big step that DMOs could take is to partner with organisations like Clever Places. Because if you really don't have those resources internally, or even if you do, these external companies have their own resources, their own partnerships with other data sources as well that can really work with any DMO of any size to try to build up their data driven decision making processes.
So it's really a partnership working together and it really can be quite affordable in the long run. I think if DMOs also do have those internal resources, it's just shifting the priority towards knowledge management, really building that into the responsibilities and the day-to-day operations of a DMO rather than looking at it as an external sort of silo or responsibility on the side.
And maybe before we head to Birka for the same question, what would it take a DMO to create a super attractive workplace for someone who loves data?
A super attractive workplace. I think there needs to be a lot of opportunities like Birka mentioned earlier, for growth and development and training within that area. So encouraging people that are interested in it within the DMO or externally to wanna be part of that side of their organisation.
Also just offering competitive pay and benefits. Birka also mentioned that it can be a bit challenging for some, especially smaller DMOs, to have those resources, but I think that can really make it more of a long-term career path for someone that is within those roles. I think also the main point would be encouraging these individuals to be part of the entire decision-making process. Rather than just having them build the lead up to the decisions, have their part of the analysis, the aggregating the data and the building of these decisions and working together as a group rather than just being someone else within the organisation. They're part of the whole process.
Fascinating. And I think that that last point in particular, maybe goes against the natural feeling for a DMO to maybe take someone in right to that level and see what they can share and what they can bring and perhaps the kind of stiffness sometimes of that governmental environment makes that quite tricky to be so fluid and so loose about saying, Hey, yeah, let's see what you can show us and let's give it a chance. Have that kind of flexibility to do that. Very interesting. Thanks, Michelle. So what about from your perspective, Birka?
Yeah, I share the aspect with Michelle in saying, you know, be realistic enough and know your limits and find good partnerships that you can trust over time and that you can build in the long run because no one is gonna make it on their own reality, with all the challenges and all the insights we need, and need to solve. However, I am also a big advocate for building skills internally and because I think that gives a certain power in the DMO, obviously that comes with the challenges of having to keep people in there and offering those opportunities that Michelle just said. And, you know, being an attractive workplace where you want to stay for a longer time. I think there is a bit of a challenging balance that everyone needs to find.
One really important thing, I think right now we are still in a bit of a trial phase now of everyone is kind of trying their own approach. There's a lot of different kind of approaches going on in destinations, and I think one of the really important things is to exchange up to that granular level of, hey, what has worked and what has not worked for you, with other destinations because we do have conferences and we do have workshops but we hardly ever have those really honest conversations about, you know, we've tried this and that didn't work, we tried that and that didn't work, but you know, we found this to be a hopeful seed of continuance in the work, I guess. I think those honest conversations we need to foster much, much more to find that and to help every DMO to find that balance.
I think, in terms of the super attractive workplace, besides what Michelle was mentioning, we are not using enough because what it comes down to is all the industries right now are trying to find how they can be the most attractive organisations and how to get that very demanded profile.
So if at one point we're getting to a point where all of the organisations have, for example, they all offer people to work from wherever they want, they give 'em as much flexibility as they want now, and we get to this optimum of, you can't almost improve the kind of the benefits that you give everyone. What does distinguish our industry compared to a pharmaceutical industry or, you know, to whatever automobile or whatever, and that really is tourism, right?
We work in one of the greatest industries in the world and we are not using this as a kind of attractive point to get the experts that we need. If someone has the chance to decide between a pharmaceutical and a tourism workplace, maybe don't pay that much. We need another very important kind of attractive driver that gets those people to us. I hope if we're using that a little bit more in the future, I hope with that we'll have a bit of better chance to get that talent into our organisations.
Absolutely. And that seems to go as well with the passion and the excitement about the industry we're working in, and even if we touch on some of the aspects related to sustainability in communities and the fact that tourism can also improve communities and change lives is something that can be really motivating.
So I think that's a really interesting point. We perhaps almost don't tap into the emotive side of things as well. Well, it's been really interesting discussing this with both of you and I value very much your different perspectives on this because I think we really have kind of these two quite different backgrounds that you both are bringing to this. And we see this same topic from different angles. And I think for me that what's been really interesting especially is to see the urgency to develop the internal capabilities and the challenges sometimes in doing that.
For reasons which don't always make sense, DMOs can be slow-moving machines, let's put it like that. The opportunity to go quicker within DMOs if the culture's right, but also to be quicker by being smart with partners who can quickly tackle sometimes really complex issues and help us get a much better understanding and perhaps even spark that culture for more internal development.
So thank you to both of you and thanks, especially to Birka for guiding us through this three-part series where we've had some fascinating discussions, we've gained a lot of perspectives and we've certainly been able to unpackage data from that destination development perspective and see both the opportunity, but the many hurdles and barriers we still need to work to overcome. I guess maybe to give you the closing Birka, what would you say destinations have to do to completely redefine themselves? Should we be looking at the marketing and brand role as something that's sort of from the past and a pre-pandemic notion, or do you see this as the future being something completely different and the role of the destination taking on an entirely new purpose?
Hmm. Yeah, thanks, Nick. And thanks in general for taking on all the ideas that I had and going along with that, it was a lot of fun so far, those three episodes. I think we all know that we cannot continue the way how we've handled, and developed our entire system until the pandemic. I think it is clear that we need to move into an entirely completely different model, where we have the social and environmental aspects much higher on the priority list.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's always entirely up just on the DMO, because it does require a complete system change, right? And that is also where the DMOs get their money from the stakeholders involved. I hope we're getting there. I think the change from destination marketing to management organisation, I think we're moving into an even further evolution of that management organisation. I don't know what we were gonna call it in the end, but it's definitely gonna be different hopefully in the future to tackle everything we need.
Great. Well, thank you very much. Thank you to you as well, Michelle. It's been great to have your contribution and input on today's discussion and we look forward to continuing this discussion at all of the opportunities that we have in front of us. I think we should really take note of what we discussed today, which is the need to have these honest conversations, so more honesty and maybe less presenting the story that we want to present and really focusing on what have we failed at and embedding that principle as perhaps the conversation starter for everything we discuss when it comes to development and the data that we can use to help us understand what's happening. Thanks very much to all of you and see you next time.
Well, that brings us to the close of this three-part series. Thank you once again to Birka Valentine for bringing together these three very interesting experts who have helped us to navigate this complex and challenging topic of data and sustainability. And thanks of course to Michelle Novotny for providing this really excellent insight on the importance of investing in people skills and capability. And not only thinking about sustainability but also thinking about the sustainability of our data-driven approach. This is also a really important question. Well, as we now have reached the close of this three-part series, we look forward to 2023 where we'll be continuing Leading Tourism's Transition with some really interesting new series. And we'll be starting off early in the new year with the next series, in which we'll be looking at foresight in tourism. How important is it to look forward and to have a sense of vision as we embrace visioneering and we start to imagine perhaps what the future might look like?
We'll be joined by Birthe Menke. She's a PhD fellow in sustainable tourism development at the University of Southern Denmark, who as BCA has been guiding us through this last three-part series. Birthe will be then guiding us through the next three-part series where we will be hearing from a new set of perspectives on how foresight can play a really key role as we start to recreate the future for tourism. And we start to imagine what a positive impact in fact might look like. So thank you for joining and we look forward to bringing you the next series very soon.
We're very excited to share the third episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, our new podcast series. In this episode, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future with Birka Valentin and Michelle Novotny, two experts in the industry. Below you can find the whole transcription of this episode.
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Welcome to the third episode of Leading Tourism's Transition, where today I'm joined by, of course, as usual, Birka Valentine, who has been steering and helping us get through this very challenging topic of how we explore data and sustainability towards a data-driven future when we think about sustainable tourism.
And we'll be joined by our guest, Michelle Novotny, the lead data analyst at Clever Places, who will be helping us to get some perspective when it comes to people and how we invest in the right capabilities to help us to achieve those goals.
Today we'll be asking questions such as, do we have enough people? Do we have the right skills? And do we have the right knowledge that exists both within companies and organisations, but also across the wider industry? We'll be looking at how to attract them and how to retain them over the long term. And of course, why is this important when we think not only about sustainability but about having a sustainable approach to investing in data-driven strategies? We'll be looking at whether is it feasible for every organisation across our industry to foster data right at the very heart of its operations. There are many challenges that come up when we discuss this. So without hesitation, let's jump into that conversation.
So welcome back everybody. It's great to be here with episode 3 where we are focusing on how to invest in capability around data. Now, I'm very pleased to be joined once again by Birka Valentin. Great to see you again.
Hi, Nick, good to be here.
And today, tell us a little bit about today's guest because as I have mentioned in the previous episodes, we've been working together to see who can help frame the topics that we have been tackling in this series. So we're here with Michelle Novotny. I'm really pleased to have you here.
Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Before we head over and hear a little bit more about yourself, maybe I'll invite Birka just to tell us a little bit about why you think Michelle is a really interesting match for this topic.
Yeah, yeah. The answer is quite simple, Nick. I think when we look around the tourism sector right now and who's doing work at the destination level as well, in terms of data, there are obviously many, many people involved nowadays, but there are probably more men than women.
Michelle will introduce herself, obviously, with more detail, with the company Clever, a female-led enterprise, focusing on data, and I thought that would be a really good contribution to the topic and a nice kickoff as well in talking about human resources and the skills needed. So that obviously put us the expertise and that she is a female, I thought was a good, good start for this one.
Well, Michelle, you certainly seem like a very, very driven female leader. So tell us a little bit about your background. Let's help everybody get to know who you are and what brought you to today's podcast.
For sure. Thank you so much for having me on today. I'm a recent graduate from the Master of Science and Management program at Toronto Metropolitan University. So I have a background in research in data analytics, specifically within the hospitality and tourism industry. I've worked as a research assistant since 2019, and I've recently come on as the data analyst at Clever Places. So we're a startup company focused on data insights for DMOs, basically, we try to aggregate and integrate all of their tourism insights and data into our easy-to-use dashboard tool.
That's great. Well, it certainly sounds like you've got things off to a very, very strong start. So let's first of all talk about capability, because I think this is definitely the topic that we want to get underneath the skin of today. And maybe just before we jump into some of the different angles we need to explore here for you, why is it so important that DMOs are becoming more and more data-driven? Why is this something that they need to absolutely prioritise in their work?
Yeah, I think it's really important for me, it comes down to sort of three Rs, which are responsibility, reliability and relevance. Like in terms of responsibilities, the tourism industry is one of the largest economic sectors worldwide. So we have an enormous impact, both positive and negative on the environment or communities in the economy. So we owe a responsibility to monitor that impact and have an influence there. And data-driven decision-making gives us the tools to do that.
I think it also comes down to reliability. So with information communication technologies and big data, we're able to make smarter and faster decisions so we don't have to rely on just past experience and intuition. And then finally, relevance. So DMOs have often been criticised for their inability to adapt to technological and societal trends. So this offers an opportunity for them to continue to remain relevant in this dynamically evolving tourism landscape.
Yeah, and that's the challenge, right? How do you actually remain relevant through the evolution of how you approach this, how you incorporate it, and how you develop the right people and the talent and the understanding in order to be able to actually achieve that opportunity? Before we kind of jump into that, Birka what's your experience been with this? I know you've worked very comprehensively within destinations and also between destinations, so you must have surely seen a really interesting set of differences when it comes to the role that people play in this process.
Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we're really looking at the foundation of it all right? And all of the projects that we see in destinations on the data side, but all the others, obviously there are many, many success factors for those kinds of projects, but I do think the common element and all of them are always the people and that it succeeds and falls with whoever is behind that.
So in terms of the data-driven aspect, when we talk about strengthening data capacities within destinations, there is a very noticeable difference if you see in destinations. If there is some staff that knows a little bit more about that topic, then there's always the more the traditional capacity of analysing kind of the traditional information, statistics, for example, that usually you can find.
Um, but going beyond that in different destinations than you do see, start to see the differences of who's been able to go deeper into certain insights have a broader insight and more different data sources, right? And going into what Michelle was mentioning, the big data sources, for example, and that is also, I wouldn't even say it depends much on the country, or on the Destination, maybe there's sometimes a bit of a cultural part in that one as well, but it's more, I think of a development aspect of the DMOs as well. And what kind of development stage are they in, how important is this data for them, and what's the commitment to lead with more evidence and tangible insights?
We actually touched on this a little bit in the last episode where we spoke especially about the need to commit to the long term. And that was something that we kind of picked up on as not only a question of investing in projects, resources, and plans that can take us really far into the future because data is something we need to build and build and build upon.
But I think we also mentioned a little bit the people aspect of that as well, and looking at how to build and invest in the right people that can take things all the way through to their full potential. So Michelle, turning to you, tell me a little bit about why you see people as being key to this important kind of goal of transforming how we work as destinations and putting data as the driving force towards destination transformation.
Yeah, I think people played such a fundamental role in this change at all different levels. I mean, we need the people that are building smart tourism infrastructures or researchers or data scientists and analysts. There are those stakeholders that are interacting with this infrastructure, like our tourists and residents and our businesses, and then there are those who are going to leverage this infrastructure to actually make the decision. So at all different levels, it's people and it's having those skills and even just the ability to communicate these insights that we're getting.
So you're kind of referring here, to one key set of skills, which I think maybe also quickly is the assumption that a lot of people would have. When you talk about data and you talk about skills, you immediately kind of connect it with okay, data scientists, people who are very analytical and able to work with the data sets that are the kind of the baseline of what we're doing. But you're also talking about a kind of leadership level as well there then. So the capability of right up to directors, vice president, CEOs, also being comfortable to really talk and work with data.
I think Nick, the topic about the profiles is really important, because one of the things we still haven't really gotten around to yet that we talk about data-driven destinations and maybe with one or two people that that would be enough, right? But if we are really talking about a whole transformation of an entire system, and obviously in that, you need at least a basic understanding of that kind of insights and how this is being generated. And obviously, then you need the specialist, right?
At the technical level who are able to do all the different processes of data, which are also not just looking or getting data, but then the whole cleaning part, the analytical part, and then turning these insights that we are finding into stories that are understandable for the non-data people from inside and outside their organisations, and being able to actually tell that story, including correlating different insights here, right? But that requires not only data and knowledge but also then tourism knowledge, right? And that's another then step towards where we need to go.
Yeah. So we kind of often focus on these one or two individuals, but I guess if we look at the need, it's really, are we talking about trying to upgrade almost the skills of an entire organisation, so everybody who has to work on everything related to the DMOs direction to be, have a kind of level of fluency when it comes to data?
I think there's a need to be individuals within the DMO that have the capacity to analyse the data, but also communicate it within the context of the tourism industry. And I think everyone needs to be able to understand it at some level, but there do need to be those specific individuals that have that background in data science and analytics.
Now, Birka, you spoke about storytelling data, which I think it's something that's quite nice to connect with because it is that human aspect of being able to take something that's blunt, you know, a set of numbers and somehow kind of tell the human part that sits behind that. What does that tell us? How does that impact someone's life? How does that impact the experience? And I guess that's quite a rare skill, right? What are we actually looking for in order to find people who can be almost sort of translators between data and between interpretation and understanding there?
Yeah. It's definitely a multidisciplinary profile, right? We're talking about someone who doesn't need to have specific in-depth knowledge, a data analyst that goes into all the different details or someone who then builds the different graphics or maps whatsoever. But someone who needs to understand how those things function. Especially, one of the really important things I think that really helps to tell stories is the geographical aspect, right? And then we're talking about someone as well that needs to understand maps and geographic information and putting that into a kind of a location context. That itself is a huge challenge sometimes. It's a bit of a multidisciplinary person. I think that requires a bit of everything, but not in depth.
And Michelle, you've gone from being a fairly recent graduate to having a key role as a data analyst at Clever Places, which is a great accomplishment. So early on in your career, so perhaps this gives you a different perspective as well. How do you see the development process and the opportunities that are available? As someone who graduated, what was your experience like when we talk about data?
You know, from my perspective, we're talking about something that everybody had to get on board with, teach themselves, learn themselves, and really pursue a genuine sense of curiosity if that isn't their core background. But today, bringing the right talent into the industry doesn't require data scientists as such, but it requires, as Birka was talking about this kind of multi multi-disciplined skillset. What's your experience been, you know, going through the further education process and then into graduate positions and then up through the ladder, what's been great and also what's been missing?
Yeah, exactly. I think you mentioned it perfectly that it's difficult to find people that have that background in both analytics and understanding the data process, but that also have that knowledge of the tourism industry. Because it is quite complex and it's a large industry with a lot of different players. So to be just someone with a background in just data science isn't really enough to come into tourism and really communicate it and tell the story. But then also, are we having enough education at the level of our colleges and universities in these tourism programs, giving graduates enough, background in data science so they can then go into the industry and apply it?
I'd say I was very lucky with my program at the Ted Rogers School of Hospitality and Tourism Management to have courses that were in information technology management and they built the foundation of those skills. I was really able to build on them in my master's program where I took a lot of statistics courses that really helped build on that. But, you know, it's also been along the way a lot of just self-taught and learning and mentorships as well within the industry and watching tutorials and videos and learning yourself and reading books. So it's gotta be a passion as well. You gotta have a passion for both the data and the industry.
That's a very interesting perspective. I think it's one that's quite different from maybe how education and tourism looked, say 15 years ago or even a little bit longer. And there does seem to be a significant increase in the integration of analytical aspects into tourism programs. And this seems to be that it can only really be a good thing for what our industry needs right now, which is perhaps more the comfort and confidence to then take that learning and that level of understanding wherever the intrigue and curiosity kind of brings you.
It's also really nice to hear about that kind of self-learning pursuit that then you can kind of take forward based on a genuine passion and interest. Do you think we have the right environment in the industry to kind of embrace that kind of excitement, that curiosity, and see people develop and be able to contribute these skills in this interest further?
I definitely think we have the right passion and drive to do so. I think really the limitation comes down to resources and if DMOs have the capacity to put money into the training and development and the hiring of these individuals that share those passions because I really think their responsibilities have expanded so much over the years, but it doesn't seem like their teams and budgets have necessarily expanded to represent those growing responsibilities. So it really comes down to those limitations. But I've seen that a lot of DMOs want to.
Yeah, there certainly seems to be a lot of determination and commitment, but how that translates maybe looks a little bit different. What's your experience of that being Birka?
I agree with Michelle. You see luckily more and more of those elements are being put into the curriculum, right? You see more and you see passionate people around this. And the good thing about this is that there is a lot of self-learning, through, you know, all the digitalised courses nowadays. So you don't always just depend on the traditional kind of educational system. Plus it's a very kind of dynamic environment that changes so quickly that is really not something you learn and then you are done with it. It's a continuous kind of education of yourself, and to keep that, obviously, we need the environments within the DMO as well to help us have the time to do that as well, right?
That's many times also get lost in so many daily activities and responsibilities that I've seen one of the challenges and destinations that's just to give that time also to employees and enable them to learn. But then there's also a really big question about how much of the knowledge we want to internalise in our DMOs and how much can we share with other organisations. How much can we rely on maybe freelancers and how much can we rely on organisations, such as the one from Michelle? It's an internal decision-making process that everyone needs to make to see what we need. What kind of questions do we want to answer, as we talked about last time and how much of that do we want to build internally? And that's a strategic decision in the end.
Yeah, I think that's actually a really great point. I mean, we see that one of the biggest issues, and not only in terms of data and development, but really across the board, and it also includes brand and marketing work, is that destinations have a tendency to outsource huge responsibilities to agencies, that they maybe work with for one to two years. And then that changes and changes and changes. And sometimes that can give them really quick wins, really fast results, something very tangible, very presentable. But there often is this lack of continuity and this lack of ownership of the knowledge of the ideas of the creativity that goes into that. And we see that those that do really well kind of break that model. They actually internalise that and they make a lot of success alongside a lot of failure in the process, I guess.
What do you think is the biggest barrier or challenge to trying to switch the mindsets to outsourcing these big ideas or big projects to actually seems like almost remodelling operations where everybody is committed to the joint kind of development process? Whether or not they necessarily know or have the answers to get there.
At Clever Places, we're trying to make it more of a partnership with our DMOs rather than them just simply outsourcing it to us. It's important to share in that ownership and responsibility what the ultimate goal is of this. So we're not just trying to be third-party data analysts for them. We're really trying to be involved in the sourcing of data, trying to find data sources that we can collect that they can't, and ones that they can collect that we can't.
And analysing that together to try to find what the key performance indicators you really need to measure and what's the best way that we can analyse it, and visualise it for you so that you can really mobilise it and make the best decisions. You can't just outsource that and not have any part of it and then just look at the dashboard or the output or report that you get. You really need to be involved in the entire process.
That's a great way of looking at where maybe that sweet spot between working with a partner, and doing everything in-house yourself is because as we spoke about at the beginning, there are maybe broad data skills which need almost a complete upgrading of everybody's knowledge and understanding. Perhaps there are even specialist areas where those technical skills and knowledge are really required because it's something that concerns the DMO continuously throughout its evolution. But at the same time, there are many areas which are somewhere between the two. And it seems like this partnership working approach with contracted partners could present really interesting opportunities to have a sort of hybrid approach.
Do you see that as something, or have you experienced that as something that can work on a long-term basis it seems for that to be viable, it needs to be both, affordable long-term and on the other hand, integrated in such a way that it's a trusted partnership for as long as it remains trusted?
Yeah, definitely. I think it can be more of a long-term approach because really in the end it does seem to be more affordable for those that don't have the capacity, especially smaller DMOs to hire a full data analyst and scientists team on board, they can hire externally. And really it's just the initial startup costs to build these tools. And a lot of it becomes sort of maintenance over time, and just continue working on finding the right sources, but it becomes more of a maintenance than it really does in a high ongoing cost. Just the partnership as, as it was mentioned sort of a long-term basis, I think works because you really are involved in taking ownership over the outcomes and the values and the views that the DMO wants as well.
Now that's quite interesting because Michelle's kind of framed it as something that can work, but it requires that investment still of attitudes of mindset of time. I think maybe also a level of knowledge and understanding from the outset of what you're getting into there is that initial cost. So this must be sometimes challenging for destinations to either understand that if you invest at the beginning, it's something you want to be committed to in the long run, but also to understand why perhaps it's a bigger front end cost, and it takes more resources to get something in place rather than something you just kind of outsource a quick analysis and you're kind of done with it. Do you find that, if we talk about developing capabilities around data and seeing more confident workforces within DMOs, do you find that from your experience there are some kind of initial roadblocks or hurdles to overcome to even get to that point?
We are in general a bit in a dilemma, living in a world where we need to deliver quick results. Where we are people are more and more used stakeholders are more and more used to get answers quickly. Building something up from scratch, taking time and having an initial investment, in the beginning, is something we very rarely see, especially in destinations, understandably for many reasons, because you are working in a framework of many times political. And if those are changing on a regular basis, then obviously there is this repetitive work needed of explaining, convincing, educating and finding the supporters that you need for those types of projects.
So that itself is a big roadblock. Then the fine balance to decide how much you want to have internally and externally, and if you want to have it more internally or with a great partnership in the long term on the side - how do you then attract the people in a sector where we usually don't pay very well at the technical level compared to other industries right now who are needing that kind of profile data profiles. So there's lots of movement going on right now in that world. So just being able to attract and retain that talent is a big challenge in itself as well.
Now you're both two very successful women who are really making an impact and carving out your own niche space and reputations. So I have huge respect for both of you, but help us understand a little bit about this gender balance, the question looks like if we think about both tourism as an industry, but also then if we nuance down to data, as a kind of technology related industry. What's your personal experience been, and I guess what would your observation be today where there's still a need for change? And sorry, this is quite a few questions in one, but how might we actively work to address that as well?
I've been very fortunate to be mentored by and work alongside some remarkable women within the field of tourism and even in data as well. I think it's really important that we continue to collaborate rather than compete just in general within the industry, by sharing knowledge, experience skills and opportunities with each other.
I think it also starts in our schools. So encouraging girls to join data and tech-related electives and extracurriculars in our high schools and elementary schools and to take university and college programs that are within the hospitality and those courses that are within information technology. And just the way we talk about it in general, because these tech jobs and data-related jobs do tend to be a bit more male-dominated, just changing the way that we speak about it in the language to be a bit more gender neutral.
I can only support what Michelle was just saying. I think, besides the gender balance in itself, I guess to this whole data world was a little bit different than Michelle's, for example, because I came in there later, right? I specialised first in destination management and in sustainability. And then as time was moving on, because that was already 10 years ago and there was the topic of big data wasn't really a part that we talked about much. It was more statistics and traditional insights.
But as time was going on and we had more and more data sources, being able to have, it doesn't matter if you are a female or male, but having the environment where you, when you have that curiosity and you see that this is something you are interested in and that would make sense for you have the ability to add that to your current skillset, which I think is fundamental and where we are, where we are heading because we won't have enough people just coming out of universities and having those skillsets, right?
It's a lot about transferring and having people move from one area to the other and just adding to it. So that itself, I think there are by now many great also programs that focus, especially on women. But I find it almost an issue of, especially in the future being able to transfer and use skills that have been there before and adapt them to what we need.
So two really slightly different perspectives there. And Michelle, from your perspective, I think you really talk about the attractiveness of the sector as a kind of career path. So really pursuing data and being encouraged and seeing the appeal of it, that this is actually a really interesting career path to go down and I guess Birka talking a bit differently there. It's really interesting to see that perspective about evolving skills and taking sometimes really valuable experience and knowledge and quite intricate understanding and then being able to almost kind of augment that by continuing to grow and continuing to learn.
So yeah, these are two really interesting perspectives. Well, if we maybe take as kind of one wrap-up point here, what I would love to get your candid opinion on is thinking about DMO, because we do a lot of work with destinations.
We talk a lot about the work that they're doing. And in fact, today we've been talking about how destinations can invest in the right capabilities, whether they're insourced or outsourced. And what I would love to know from each of you is if destinations can take one bold action to radically change how they approach development and developing people, what action would they take?
And Michelle, I'm gonna throw maybe a curve ball to you to just ask also an additional question. At the moment, you're working in a specialised company that's giving you the opportunity to perhaps play and really develop in an area that you love. What is missing in a DMO that perhaps doesn't quite make that such a playground that could be that it seems like you really enjoy the space you're in right now, and how can a DMO make that environment competitive? So who wants to go first on that? It's a big question, so you might need a second to think about it.
I'll try to go first. I'm a bit biased because I'm coming from the perspective of that external data insights company. So I think one big step that DMOs could take is to partner with organisations like Clever Places. Because if you really don't have those resources internally, or even if you do, these external companies have their own resources, their own partnerships with other data sources as well that can really work with any DMO of any size to try to build up their data driven decision making processes.
So it's really a partnership working together and it really can be quite affordable in the long run. I think if DMOs also do have those internal resources, it's just shifting the priority towards knowledge management, really building that into the responsibilities and the day-to-day operations of a DMO rather than looking at it as an external sort of silo or responsibility on the side.
And maybe before we head to Birka for the same question, what would it take a DMO to create a super attractive workplace for someone who loves data?
A super attractive workplace. I think there needs to be a lot of opportunities like Birka mentioned earlier, for growth and development and training within that area. So encouraging people that are interested in it within the DMO or externally to wanna be part of that side of their organisation.
Also just offering competitive pay and benefits. Birka also mentioned that it can be a bit challenging for some, especially smaller DMOs, to have those resources, but I think that can really make it more of a long-term career path for someone that is within those roles. I think also the main point would be encouraging these individuals to be part of the entire decision-making process. Rather than just having them build the lead up to the decisions, have their part of the analysis, the aggregating the data and the building of these decisions and working together as a group rather than just being someone else within the organisation. They're part of the whole process.
Fascinating. And I think that that last point in particular, maybe goes against the natural feeling for a DMO to maybe take someone in right to that level and see what they can share and what they can bring and perhaps the kind of stiffness sometimes of that governmental environment makes that quite tricky to be so fluid and so loose about saying, Hey, yeah, let's see what you can show us and let's give it a chance. Have that kind of flexibility to do that. Very interesting. Thanks, Michelle. So what about from your perspective, Birka?
Yeah, I share the aspect with Michelle in saying, you know, be realistic enough and know your limits and find good partnerships that you can trust over time and that you can build in the long run because no one is gonna make it on their own reality, with all the challenges and all the insights we need, and need to solve. However, I am also a big advocate for building skills internally and because I think that gives a certain power in the DMO, obviously that comes with the challenges of having to keep people in there and offering those opportunities that Michelle just said. And, you know, being an attractive workplace where you want to stay for a longer time. I think there is a bit of a challenging balance that everyone needs to find.
One really important thing, I think right now we are still in a bit of a trial phase now of everyone is kind of trying their own approach. There's a lot of different kind of approaches going on in destinations, and I think one of the really important things is to exchange up to that granular level of, hey, what has worked and what has not worked for you, with other destinations because we do have conferences and we do have workshops but we hardly ever have those really honest conversations about, you know, we've tried this and that didn't work, we tried that and that didn't work, but you know, we found this to be a hopeful seed of continuance in the work, I guess. I think those honest conversations we need to foster much, much more to find that and to help every DMO to find that balance.
I think, in terms of the super attractive workplace, besides what Michelle was mentioning, we are not using enough because what it comes down to is all the industries right now are trying to find how they can be the most attractive organisations and how to get that very demanded profile.
So if at one point we're getting to a point where all of the organisations have, for example, they all offer people to work from wherever they want, they give 'em as much flexibility as they want now, and we get to this optimum of, you can't almost improve the kind of the benefits that you give everyone. What does distinguish our industry compared to a pharmaceutical industry or, you know, to whatever automobile or whatever, and that really is tourism, right?
We work in one of the greatest industries in the world and we are not using this as a kind of attractive point to get the experts that we need. If someone has the chance to decide between a pharmaceutical and a tourism workplace, maybe don't pay that much. We need another very important kind of attractive driver that gets those people to us. I hope if we're using that a little bit more in the future, I hope with that we'll have a bit of better chance to get that talent into our organisations.
Absolutely. And that seems to go as well with the passion and the excitement about the industry we're working in, and even if we touch on some of the aspects related to sustainability in communities and the fact that tourism can also improve communities and change lives is something that can be really motivating.
So I think that's a really interesting point. We perhaps almost don't tap into the emotive side of things as well. Well, it's been really interesting discussing this with both of you and I value very much your different perspectives on this because I think we really have kind of these two quite different backgrounds that you both are bringing to this. And we see this same topic from different angles. And I think for me that what's been really interesting especially is to see the urgency to develop the internal capabilities and the challenges sometimes in doing that.
For reasons which don't always make sense, DMOs can be slow-moving machines, let's put it like that. The opportunity to go quicker within DMOs if the culture's right, but also to be quicker by being smart with partners who can quickly tackle sometimes really complex issues and help us get a much better understanding and perhaps even spark that culture for more internal development.
So thank you to both of you and thanks, especially to Birka for guiding us through this three-part series where we've had some fascinating discussions, we've gained a lot of perspectives and we've certainly been able to unpackage data from that destination development perspective and see both the opportunity, but the many hurdles and barriers we still need to work to overcome. I guess maybe to give you the closing Birka, what would you say destinations have to do to completely redefine themselves? Should we be looking at the marketing and brand role as something that's sort of from the past and a pre-pandemic notion, or do you see this as the future being something completely different and the role of the destination taking on an entirely new purpose?
Hmm. Yeah, thanks, Nick. And thanks in general for taking on all the ideas that I had and going along with that, it was a lot of fun so far, those three episodes. I think we all know that we cannot continue the way how we've handled, and developed our entire system until the pandemic. I think it is clear that we need to move into an entirely completely different model, where we have the social and environmental aspects much higher on the priority list.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's always entirely up just on the DMO, because it does require a complete system change, right? And that is also where the DMOs get their money from the stakeholders involved. I hope we're getting there. I think the change from destination marketing to management organisation, I think we're moving into an even further evolution of that management organisation. I don't know what we were gonna call it in the end, but it's definitely gonna be different hopefully in the future to tackle everything we need.
Great. Well, thank you very much. Thank you to you as well, Michelle. It's been great to have your contribution and input on today's discussion and we look forward to continuing this discussion at all of the opportunities that we have in front of us. I think we should really take note of what we discussed today, which is the need to have these honest conversations, so more honesty and maybe less presenting the story that we want to present and really focusing on what have we failed at and embedding that principle as perhaps the conversation starter for everything we discuss when it comes to development and the data that we can use to help us understand what's happening. Thanks very much to all of you and see you next time.
Well, that brings us to the close of this three-part series. Thank you once again to Birka Valentine for bringing together these three very interesting experts who have helped us to navigate this complex and challenging topic of data and sustainability. And thanks of course to Michelle Novotny for providing this really excellent insight on the importance of investing in people skills and capability. And not only thinking about sustainability but also thinking about the sustainability of our data-driven approach. This is also a really important question. Well, as we now have reached the close of this three-part series, we look forward to 2023 where we'll be continuing Leading Tourism's Transition with some really interesting new series. And we'll be starting off early in the new year with the next series, in which we'll be looking at foresight in tourism. How important is it to look forward and to have a sense of vision as we embrace visioneering and we start to imagine perhaps what the future might look like?
We'll be joined by Birthe Menke. She's a PhD fellow in sustainable tourism development at the University of Southern Denmark, who as BCA has been guiding us through this last three-part series. Birthe will be then guiding us through the next three-part series where we will be hearing from a new set of perspectives on how foresight can play a really key role as we start to recreate the future for tourism. And we start to imagine what a positive impact in fact might look like. So thank you for joining and we look forward to bringing you the next series very soon.
In this episode, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future with Birka Valentin and Michelle Novotvy, two experts in the industry.
In this episode, we'll be exploring which capabilities we should invest in to help us to achieve a sustainable data-driven future with Birka Valentin and Michelle Novotvy, two experts in the industry.
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